‘You can't have a fair society without having everybody feel they can belong’

A Q&A with former Governor General Adrienne Clarkson, the NIA’s new Honorary Chair

Last week, the NIA announced that former Governor General Adrienne Clarkson would be the new Honorary Chair of its Advisory Board. Madame Clarkson was Governor General of Canada from Oct. 7, 1999, to Sept. 27, 2005, and has had a distinguished career in broadcasting, journalism, the arts and the public service.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Q: Let's start with a basic question. Why are you interested in taking this position as the NIA’s Honorary Chair?

A: Because I'm old. (laughs) Because I'm 83 years old, and I'm very happy to be 83 years old, but also, I believe that there are many people who are ageing who never thought, when they were young, that they would ever be old. When you get old — and we are improving everybody's lifespans tremendously with our medical care, with all the kinds of benefits that we have in the highly developed country that we live in — you're not going to do the things that you did when you were young. I'm not going to do cartwheels, as I did when I was a cheerleader at 15. I'm not going to be able to dance all night, as I used to be able to when I was in my 40s, even — at parties till 4 in the morning, and then get up two hours later and do a television program. I’m not going to be able to do that. But you want to be at the top of what you could be at your age. And I think with all the advances that we've made, medically and socially, we want to make sure that everybody has access to that.

Equality is one of the things that attracts me to this. The reason why I want to work with the National Institute on Ageing is that I want to make sure that people have as much opportunity, as they age, to do as much as they want to do, and that they're not held back because of not being able to access health care or not having enough resources materially to do what they want to do.

I'm also interested in the fact that older people can continue to contribute in a lot of ways. They can continue to contribute their ideas, their innovations, their experience, and they can continue to learn in order to help sharpen those experiences for other people. I don't think the same way that I did when I was 40, or certainly not when I was 20. So you can give the benefit of your experience without trapping people into “you've got to do it my way.” That’s very important for people who are ageing.

Then, of course, a big push for me was seeing how people were treated in long-term care homes during COVID. I think most of us were horrified to have that ugly side revealed to us, of how people are warehoused in our very rich society in Canada, how they don't have choices right now. We're having this whole thing of how do you get people out of hospital but then they don't have a choice of where they go. And all they seem to be talking about is that they’re using up resources. I mean, after all, people who are 60, 70, 80, 90 years old have spent their lives contributing to our society — either economically if they’ve had jobs, or with their life, which is the case for many women of my age who have not had jobs. I want to help us all rethink the way we look at ageing, and the way we look at the years that are supposed to be “non-productive” after retirement. It's a way of looking at society not from the point of view of economic contribution, which is really the way our society tends to look at things — how much do you contribute economically to society? Older people can contribute other things.

Q: Do you have any role models or people that you've looked up to as being a good example of how you would like to age?

A: One of them was Colette, the French writer. Colette had a fantastic life, really did a lot more naughty things when she was young than I did. I think that's for a lot of reasons, because when you grew up in Canada, you didn't tend to think about naughty things as much as you did if you grew up in France. And I thought that she was absolutely marvellous. A few years after Colette died, I was living in France and going to school there, and a lot was written about her. She was incredibly aged and she looked it. And she looked really funny — her hair was all frizzy, and she wore a lot of white makeup and bright red lipstick — but she was still this extraordinary figure. And I thought, how terrific to be that kind of figure till you die. And although I haven't wanted to frizz my hair or wear bright red lipstick, it's great to be what you are or could be till the very end of your life. So I think that certainly influenced me a lot because subliminally I thought, “I'm not going to live that kind of life, I will never have the opportunity to live that kind of life.” But the life energy, the life force that made her do that, is what inspires me and always has inspired me.

I think ageing for women is a very interesting prospect, because so much of their lives used to be based on your looks as your capital. I wasn't brought up in that way, so I was going to make my own capital, and I was encouraged to do that by my family. . . Men get by because they've always worked and they have pensions and everything's aimed towards them.

Q: You’ve also spoken about immigration and ageing. Why is that so important to you?

We have to be very aware that there are a lot of people who have been immigrants who come to Canada. And increasingly, over the last 20 or 30 years, a lot of older women have been brought to Canada by their families in order to babysit so that the parents can go to work. And there are many, many grandmothers from different countries who are looking after children and who don't have the opportunity to learn English very well, or to perhaps make friends or have a social circle. And I think we have to look at that and think of this group of people who do their best, and I think when they're given opportunities, can really do something, but we have not really addressed that.

This touches on the Institute for Canadian Citizenship, which I founded and which does a lot of work with immigrants. We don’t do anything specifically with older people, but I think we really have to start thinking about how to make sure that, although they're older when they come, maybe 45-50, that they don't live those years from 50 to when they die as outsiders in the society where they may have technically become citizens; that there's something that they can look to as being part of where they belong. You can't have a fair society without having everybody feel that they can belong. In our society, which is a democratic one and a free one, we should make sure that everybody has the opportunity to go as far as they can. I don't want older immigrant women to become second-class citizens, and I have a deep suspicion that they are.

Q: Is there anything in terms of policy measures you think we should look at to try to improve conditions for older adults?

A: I’d like to work with people about that, because I think there are other models for the way in which people can continue some kind of work after retirement. There's also the attitudes that we have towards older people. More and more, our attitudes towards people are as though they are only economic factors in our society — you know, if you're a working person, paying taxes, etc., then you're worthwhile. If you aren't, and you're drawing an old age pension and Old Age Security, then you’re not really. You're a drain on society. And that's the attitude that I'd like to change. I'd like to feel that we have some kind of harnessing of older people's energies, to be able to use those energies in a way which is productive, and also which is dignified. We've always concentrated on getting young people organized into things. Katimavik is an initiative developed years ago to get young people to do things. But I'd like that kind of initiative to be done for older people. Many people have a lot of talents and a lot of things that they could spend some time doing, part-time or as much as they like. Most people do not want just to sit in their condo.

So how can you continue to contribute, as you always have contributed? Or how can you contribute as you never have contributed? Can you be asked to do different things that don’t require physical agility? Because women, for instance, who have run households and brought up children and supported their husbands through all sorts of things have incredible managerial capacity and they just don't know it, because it's never been called that. And you see that in every possible way, and every strata of socioeconomic level.

Q: As you know, the previous person who held the position of NIA Honorary Chair was the late Bill Davis, former Premier of Ontario, and I understand he was a mentor to you. What does it mean to be taking this position that he held?

Premier Davis was, to me, the finest public figure that I have ever known in my life. And I've worked a lot in television, I've met people all over the world, who've had those kinds of leadership positions. Why was he? Because he was decent. He was a decent human being; he listened to other people; he was self-deprecating, although he was self-assured; he had a great sense of what he understood and could do; and he always listened to other people. He had a very strong will, and he had a tremendous sense of humour, a wonderful sense of humour. And he was extremely to the point — if you asked him for advice about something, he would immediately give you his opinion and he never danced around it. After I met him in 1982, when I went to work for him as Agent General (for Ontario) in France, I never made a major decision about my career or anything else I was doing without consulting him. I would consult him and he would take a pause, and then he'd say something. And if he said to me it was the right thing to do, I would do it immediately without even thinking about it.

He really had a decency about him. A decent person is a fair person, is somebody who respects other people. It wasn't about politics, or whether he was a conservative or those kinds of labels. He was in public life because he believed in the public good. And to be able to be the Honorary Chair as his successor is a great honour, because I don't think there's anybody in public life I ever admired more than him.